Army Launches Competition for More Powerful Combat Rifle

Discussion in 'General Hunting' started by EC, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. EC

    EC 12 pointer

    Jul 13, 2003
    Louisville, KY.
    So what the heck is wrong with just using M14s??


    Army Launches Competition for More Powerful Combat Rifle
    U.S. Air Force Staff Sgt. Adam Hoyle, 321st Special Tactics Squadron combat controller, prepares to fire a SCAR-H assault rifle Nov. 18, 2013, at a shooting range.. (U.S. Air Force photo by Airman 1st Class Kyla Gifford/Released) | 5 Aug 2017 | by Matthew Cox

    U.S. Army weapon officials just opened a competition for a new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle to arm infantry units with a weapon potent enough to penetrate enemy body armor.

    "The Army has identified a potential gap in the capability of ground forces and infantry to penetrate body armor using existing ammunition. To address this operational need, the Army is looking for an Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR) that is capable of defeating emerging threats," according to an Aug. 4 solicitation posted on

    The service plans to initially award up to eight contracts, procuring seven types of weapons from each gunmaker for test and evaluation purposes. Once the review is concluded, the service "may award a single follow-on Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) based contract for the production of up to 50,000 weapons," the solicitation states.

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    "The Government has a requirement to acquire a commercial 7.62mm ICSR to field with the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) to engage and defeat protected and unprotected threats," the solicitation states. "The ultimate objective of the program is to acquire and field a 7.62mm ICSR that will increase soldier lethality."

    The opening of the competition comes just over two months after Army's Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley revealed to Congress that the M4 Carbine's M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round cannot penetrate modern enemy body armor plates similar to the U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.

    This past spring, Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn released a directed requirement for a new 7.62mm rifle designed for combat units, prompting Army weapons officials to write a formal requirement.

    The presence of a 7.62mm rifle in Army infantry squads is nothing new. Since 2009, the Army's squad designated marksman rifle has been the Enhanced Battle Rifle, or EBR, 14 -- a modernized M14 equipped with a Sage International adjustable aluminum stock with pistol grip, a Leupold 3.5x10 power scope and Harris bipod legs.

    The Army adopted the EBR concept, first used in 2004 by Navy SEALs, in response to the growing need of infantry squads operating in Afghanistan to engage enemy fighters at longer ranges.

    The EBR is heavy, just under 15 pounds unloaded, compared with the standard M14's unloaded weight of 9 pounds.

    The Army's Interim Combat Service Rifle should have either 16-inch or 20-inch barrels, a collapsible buttstock, an extended forward rail and weigh less than 12 pounds unloaded and without an optic, according to a May 31 Army request for information.

    Multiple proposals may be submitted by the same organization; however, each proposal must consist of the weapons, proposal, and System Safety Assessment Report. All proposals are due by 3 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time Wednesday Sept. 6 September 2017, the solicitation states.

    In addition to the weapons, gun makers will also be evaluated on production capability and proposed price, according to the solicitation.

    All weapons should include items such as a suppressor, cleaning, specialized tools and enough magazines to support the basic load of 210 rounds.

    The competition will consist of live-fire testing and evaluate the following:

    • Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
    • Compatible with Family of Weapon Sights - Individual and laser
    • Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
    • Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
    • Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
    • Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
    • 20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load
    • Folding sights
    "Areas to be evaluated could include, but not be limited to: Controllability and Recoil, Trigger, Ease/Speed of Magazine Changes, Sighting System Interface (e.g., ability to acquire and maintain sight picture), and Usability of Controls (e.g., safety)," the solicitation states.

    "Additionally, a small, limited user evaluation may be conducted with qualified soldiers," it states.

    Milley told lawmakers in late May that the Army does not believe that every soldier needs a 7.62mm rifle. These weapons would be reserved for the Army's most rapid-deployable infantry units.

    "We would probably want to field them with a better-grade weapon that can penetrate this body armor," Milley said.
  2. Feedman

    Feedman Cyber-Hunter

    May 28, 2003
    In the basement
    Who we gonna be fighting that has body armor. None of the rag heads have body armor.
  3. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

    Oct 27, 2008
    Boone County
    Uh. Yeah they do, and have for awhile. They order it on the internet the same as you and I can.
    brush hopper likes this.
  4. carnivore

    carnivore 12 pointer

    Nov 17, 2007
    California ky
    china, n korea, russia
    brush hopper likes this.
  5. richief

    richief 10 pointer

    Jun 20, 2012
    down a holler SE KY
    Love to see mil surp, black tip, .308 come back.
  6. elkaholic

    elkaholic 12 pointer

    Jan 12, 2012
    Pendleton County
    Blow the crap out of the enemy with F18s and we don't need infantry. Just send in Seals and Rangers to finish whats left.
  7. Dust off the old NATO FAL rifle and update it to modern sights and suppressors and you have a ready made, proven contender. The old Israeli Galil or Valmet in 308 is another proven package. Some of the SAR produces are performing well also. Finally, is 308 necessary to defeat the armor. What if we "Optimized some other existing or new cartridge to take advantage of the new projectiles and powders to get the job done with less recoil and weight. I am thinking of cartridges such as the 22/250 and the 243 and viable alternatives to the 308 provided we topped them with a SS109 style penetrator projectile. Flat, accurate and faster than the old 308. Just a thought.

  8. 120+

    120+ 12 pointer

    elkaholic likes this.
  9. JR in KY

    JR in KY 10 pointer

    Jan 25, 2006
    The Occupied South
    All I got to say on this is that if they adopt a short barrel carbine in .308, it does need a suppressor. Did you ever shoot one of those CTME Rifles? Kills at both ends.
    I had one and traded it away.
    KYote-Krusher and FOWLER2671 like this.
  10. reivertom

    reivertom 12 pointer

    Dec 17, 2007
    Greenup Co.
    They won't use the M-14 because there is no money in it. This way they can grease palms and get greased themselves by drawing this search out and choosing something they can contract out and make some defense company happy. Even if they do come back to the 14, it will be after a bunch of money is spent searching and testing.
    KYote-Krusher likes this.
  11. Feedman

    Feedman Cyber-Hunter

    May 28, 2003
    In the basement
    Never thought about that. Those donkey Humpers are getting high tech.
  12. Iceman35

    Iceman35 12 pointer

    Oct 27, 2008
    Boone County
    Heard that directly from my college buddy who was a platoon commander during Iraqi Fredom in '03. Said that guys were sneaking in their own .45's on their second tour because the insurgents had body armor that could stop 9mm, and 5.56 at long range.
  13. They took their own 45's because it made them feel better. Same reason most who go into harms way do not want a 9mm. OK for everyday cc but if you knew you were going into a firefight, is a pistol what you want? Simple answer is "No" with or without body armor. I love the 45 and it will knock the wind out of you but is not a great penetrator. If you know you are going to get shot at today you will want a long-gun. Ideally one with enough punch to drill through one or two car doors or light cover or body armor.

    I agree that a short 308 needs a suppressor. I shot a HK91 with a shorty bbl once in full auto and it sounded like a M2 50BMG. It would leave your ears ringing. Not good. Here is a thought. Short term, just dust off all of them old surplus M1 Garands? Add on a modern sight with range compensation and you have a 1000yd penetrator with capability to defeat most armor. Add API rds and it becomes even better. Heavy, yes. Low-tech, yes. Cost effective? Yes. Quick to the field - tomorrow. Would likely have to source them from over seas but we do not need a million of them. Just 20k or so. Give them to every 5th rifleman. Especially the ones that qualified expert. Done, problem solved. Then go about designing a better version to replace it.

    As for the comment to deploy killer robot drones? Sure, when you have them and where they work, but that logic also would lead you to stop issuing guns to the troops at all. If troops are needed, they should be equipped with the best firepower money can buy. If there is a question what that is? Simply drive over to the Delta's and the Seal Team's home bases and walk thru the armory and ask them. They will tell you. Back to the drones. In 2004 we began a project which was aimed at developing the nano-sized war fighting drones. Some as small as a fly. Imagine a drone that flies into the enemies HQ and lands on the wall next to the NME commander. It listens for as long as needed and when necessary, it explodes with the force of a grenade taking out the commander and everyone in the room. Or the drone the size of a humming bird that can take out a squad or just follow them until a J-DAM is dropped from 36,000 ft?
  14. FOWLER2671

    FOWLER2671 12 pointer

    Sep 11, 2009
    Evicted from Aintry'
    I think the standard AR/M16 is a very good and proven platform. Add the impingement to eliminate the carbon in the action and use a .243 , 7mm/08 or a 6.5/08 for good downrange killing with the light recoil.

    A scoped M-14 would also be hard to beat and the standard rifles could be easily adapted and we have a few million in depot storage.
  15. mwezell

    mwezell 12 pointer

    Jan 22, 2006
    Auburn, KY
    A 6.5 Grendel makes a lot of sense in an ar15..Or, the 30 caliber version of it, if you want a 30 that shoots a 125gr bullet at 2650fps from an ar15 based rifle.(3000fps from a bolt gun or a stronger platform) The AMU played with it and won several matches with it. It shoots great and holds the world record for 5 shot group size@100 yards, from a bench rifle.
    Also, any of the ar10 based rounds seem very logical except the 180-210 round combat load and magazines. The 6.5 or the 30 Grendel can meet those requirements.

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